When coming up with our latest issue for VMAN, we thought about the rule-breakers of our generation who are at the tip of our tongues when discussing the current state of pop culture. For the cover, we wanted musicians who herald this exact notion, and the answer for who to put was simple: Troye Sivan and Omar Apollo. Different in some ways, alike in many, when placing them atop our spring/summer issue with their own respective covers, shot by Jack Bridgland (a rulebreaker in his own right), we thought ‘Why not have them speak with each other?’ Below, you’ll find that very conversation.

VMAN gathered Sivan and Apollo together on a call and let the boys (ahem, the men) dish it out on pretty much anything and everything that came to mind—from their first time meeting each other, dating while on tour, and their ultimate must-have: a portable sauna.

VMAN: How did you guys first meet?

Omar Apollo: I think the Loewe [show], no?

Troye Sivan: I don’t remember. I feel like for some reason, I have a memory of [meeting at] Blake Slatkin’s house.

OA: Probably! That makes a lot of sense. But that has to be like 2018 or 2019, no?

TS: I don’t know. But I remember really meeting you for sure at the [show]. It was when you were wearing that coat that was shedding on me.

OA: Oh, yeah. That’s right, it was everywhere. I just found a photo of that! I’ll send it to you. It’s really funny, we are all sitting really close together and our heads are just—

TS: Was that one where I wasn’t wearing pants?

OA: You came in pantsless, giving a whole lot of leg. It was a vibe.

TS: I’m pretty sure my mom was there as well, so you would have met my mom, day one.

OA: Aww. I need to bring my mom to a fashion show. I brought her to the Grammys, that was a vibe.

TS: No, honestly, it’s the biggest hack once you realize that you can bring family. I don’t know about you, but I do not need management or anything like that [to accompany me] at a fashion show. So I just bring my brother, or my mom, sister, dad, and it’s really fun.

VMAN: You guys both come from big families, right? You have several siblings each. Do you feel like leaders in your families?

OA: I’m the baby of the family but I am the tallest.

TS: I’m the second oldest, middle kid vibes. Do I feel like the leader? No, I don’t. 

OA: Feeling like a leader is crazy to think about. (*laughs*) Leading in general sounds chaotic. [For me], there’s an element of leading when you make the rhythm and pattern of decisions that an artist has to make on a daily basis. You kind of have to have a lot of leadership qualities. But at home, I’m not a leader. My dad tells me to do shit [all the time].

TS: That’s something that I really appreciate about my family and my home life. At the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter what’s going on in my life or work-wise or anything like that. The second I’m home, I fully just regress back to—

OA: I’m a baby when I get home.

TS: Exactly.

OA: Like my mom makes me tea and is giving me grapes on a plate [when I’m home]. I definitely still have the “baby of the family” card because my older siblings get told what to do more than me, for sure. It’s always just kind of been like that. There’s this story of back when I was like eight years old. [At our house], we would have to unfreeze our pipes when it was really cold. So, [one time], me and my dad were digging in the backyard to unfreeze the pipes. [After] 15 minutes, I just threw my shovel down, looked at my dad, [and said] “I don’t want to do this anymore. I’m a kid.” And then, he was just like, “Okay.”

TS: Wait I have a question. How do you unfreeze a pipe?

OA: I don’t even know. I think he had a torch [to heat it from the outside].

VMAN: Seems like you had that rebel spark from the jump, I guess.

OA: I just knew that physical labor was not meant for me. 

VMAN: Speaking of spark, how do you both tap into your sense of ambition and desire? Where does that come from? Because you’re both incredibly hard-working…

OA: I’ve actually tried to stop chasing my desires. It’s like my New Year’s resolution…resistance. 

VMAN: Really?

Omar: I’m joking! I definitely get my work ethic from my parents. My dad had two jobs. My mom had two jobs. My dad worked like 16 hours a day, and I’d see him at night. And the same with my mom. She was a hairstylist, did a lot of church work, and worked as a lunch lady at our school, so I would see them all the time. So it was just embedded [in us] that you just work. That’s kind of what life is. But I think I just had a strong cognitive dissonance for things I didn’t have any interest in. So it wasn’t intentional [for me] to be shutting out every other work avenue. [When it came to music], it was about ‘This is what I love doing. I want to keep doing this.’ I just had a genuine interest in it. But then when I started making money [with music], I was like ‘oh, shit’. Now I have integrity [to support] as opposed to survival. So now it’s like this integral choice that is fueling the work ethic.

TS: Did you know when you started that you could make money doing it? Or was it just a hobby?

OA: It was just a hobby. I had no clue I could make money at all. When I made my first real money [from music], it was like an $800 check after a show in New York when I was like 19 and that was like the most money I’d ever seen in my life. I was like, ‘damn’—even my mom too, I remember her seeing it, and she was just like, ‘what the fuck? This is too much money.’ I only played for like 30 minutes or something. 

TS: I used to busk in the city. I would sing on the street with a little hat or whatever.

OA: No way! That’s a vibe.

TS: I remember one time, it was around Christmas and the city was popping. It was crazy, and I made 700 bucks and I was stoked.

OA: Wow! How old were you when you did that?

TS: Probably like 12.

OA: Dang! A 12 year old with $700.

TS: Exactly. I was really happy with that.

OA: That was your first experience with the music business…through the streets. 

TS: Exactly. I used to record on CDs and I would sell the CDs and stuff like that. I hated singing on the street. So I only did it like a few times, maybe like ten times. And then I stopped. Maybe it built my resilience or whatever, but it’s really shitty. It kind of reminds me of a festival or something like that, when you’re a baby artist and you really have to try and win the crowd over throughout your set.

OA: Yes, it’s like when you’re opening for somebody on tour, like that vibe. When I was opening, I had to talk to myself before I went out and played. I had to be like, ‘Okay, everyone’s going to be looking at you, and they might look bored, they might be annoyed, they might want you to get off stage. They might love you. They might hate you, but you’re the only person that’s going to open, so just do your best.’

TS: Have you had any crazy openers or opened for anyone crazy?

OA: I just opened for SZA last year, which was my first arena tour. [One night], I was so, so nervous that my voice was cracking. Then I got on Twitter, and [they were] all dragging me. I was like, ‘Fuck, man. I’m never gonna crack on stage again.’ So what happened was that I got so nervous, my whole throat dried up. I got nervous because you know, it’s not your crowd, and it’s like 17,000 people. It was so bad. I remember the next day, I was in Chicago and my parents were going to be there. And I just told myself, ‘All right, that’s never going to happen again’. It kind of feels like you’re a gladiator getting the shit beaten out of you, and everyone’s just watching. That’s how it feels when your voice cracks. But then it taught me so much after that. [From then], I would literally sit in the dark and then just talk to myself like I was about to go out and fight Mike Tyson, and I was going to win or something. You know what I mean? Like this amazing self-talk. It’s kind of embarrassing, the things you say when you’re just hyping yourself up, but you’re trying to get yourself to really believe in what you’re about to do. When you start to doubt yourself, you get nervous. For shows, I don’t really get stressed out about them until I’m there and about to go on. That’s when it starts.

TS: I’ve had moments throughout my life where I’ve had terrible stage fright. And then it kind of went away on tour in like 2019 because I just got so used to it and started to feel more confident in the show and everything like that.

OA: You got to do the self-talk! Run that. It definitely works. It’s a very egotistical move in your head. It’s a switch. Once you get off stage, you can turn the switch off. But like, you have to turn it on to where you’re just like ‘Oh I’m actually the best human on earth’. 

TS: Headline shows feel fine. I think I’ll be okay in that environment.

OA: So you’re nervous at festivals?

TS: Festivals I’m a bit scared of, but also I sort of rely on the fact that the audience is there to have fun, you know what I mean? Like they’re not there to judge you or anything like that because they’re like with their friends, [having fun], and seeing SZA later, you know what I mean? The stuff that really stresses me out is industry stuff, like TV—

OA: TV performances?

TS: I’ll avoid doing a TV [performance] for the rest of my life. SNL, for example, I did it in 2018. The experience reminds me of skydiving, or something like that, where I’m like ‘I’m really happy that I did that, and now I can say that I did that’, but do I ever need to do that again?

OA: Well SNL is super live though, right? You can’t even get a second take. Do people know that? (*laughs*)

TS: I don’t know. Omar, did you perform at the Grammys when you were nominated?

OA: No, I was just drunk. 

TS: That’s the kind of thing where I’m like…I don’t know. I would be tempted to say no because I would be so scared. And if they asked me, I would—

OA: You gotta do it.

VMAN: There’s something really important in what you’re both saying, which is that there’s a certain amount of “Fake it til you make it” belief that’s required to do what you both do. People think that someone in your position would wake up every day feeling “it”.

OA: I’m not gonna lie…sometimes I do, very often. (*laughs*)

TS: That’s the thing! When you do reach that point, because you do sometimes, it’s the best feeling in the world. You’re like ‘Oh, I’m that girl.’ and that’s really fun. But it takes a lot self work.

OA: I feel like once you’ve put in that amount of work, that’s when you start waking up like that. For me, if I don’t feel prepared, I’m going to wake up miserable. But if I feel prepared, I wake up and like, go outside and touch grass [or something]. It’s a vibe. Eventually, it just becomes muscle memory and then you don’t even care. You don’t even give a fuck.

TS: Once it’s in your body like that, then you can relax. And that’s when it really gets fun.

OA: Are you dancing on this tour, Troye?

TS: I don’t know, TBD. I haven’t started choreo yet. I’m going to try.

OA: I had a dream about you on tour.

TS: Really? Was I dancing?

OA: Yeah, you were dancing on a stage in like Belgium, I think. And there was just a bunch of buff, super swol, shirtless men dancing with you. And I think there were, like, 17 people there. It was an intimate show, but super high production. It was a vibe. 

TS: Okay. I need to interpret this dream. I’m like, okay, so it’s a sick show, but no one comes.

OA: (*laughs*) No, no, no—this is just my dream. Maybe you were rehearsing. I don’t know, maybe the people in the crowd were your team.

TS: But the show looked all right? like it was cool?

OA: Yeah, yeah! You were dancing amongst all of these tall guys. I know there’s a rumor that you’re short, like 5’8” or something.

TS: Yeah…

OA: Are you going to address it or no?

TS: I feel like I’ve done my best to address it, and now I just have to [let it go].

OA: It’s crazy, I had the same exact 5’8” rumor. People thought I was 5′ 8″.

TS: It’s like homophobes spreading rumors about us online.

OA: I know, I’m kind of used to it. I’ve honestly just been leaning into it.

TS: I need to find somebody who’s famously 5’10” and take a picture back to back with them, you know? That’s what I’m going to do.

OA: (*laughs*) Exactly. 

TS: You know, we’re actually playing a lot of the same festivals.

OA: Yeah, we’re following each other. I’ll come to your trailer and give you the pep talk. Honestly, on show days, I’m crazy. Like, I’m talking to everybody. I don’t like staying in a room. I like to jump around. Especially if it’s a festival, I’m just excited to go on stage. 

TS: Here’s a good question, actually. To what extent are you like a “bubbly boy” when you’re on tour? Like, how protective are you of yourself? Are you going out partying?

OA: You know, on tour, I definitely was not going out. I was completely focused. I was like an athlete. I had a little infrared sauna I was traveling with, and I had a trainer.

TS: How do you travel with a sauna? 

OA: Well it’s like a foldable one. It’s like a little tent, and then your head pops up. They’re really good. If you could get a traveling steam room too, that would be a vibe.

TS: Wow. 

OA: It’s good for your voice.

TS: I’m just wondering about [not going out on tour] because that’s something that I go back and forth with. There have been times when I’m not doing anything at all and just hardly even sightseeing and stuff. Just trying to find the balance between having a life, living it, and feeling like a human being while also looking after yourself. Because you’ve got a lot of people that are relying on you.

OA: So what I do is rent a car on my days off the show, and I just drive around and I’ll go to parks, watch the sunset, or go to a restaurant. My band is [made up of] all my friends, [I’ve] known them for years. And some of the people that go on tour with me, I’ve known since middle school, so I just make sure I have good people around me.

VMAN: How do you find that balance? At what point are you serving your broader creative process in that your life is your creative process? And at what point is it taking away from it? Balance is hard for everybody.

OA: I have a few things that I travel with too like a journal, my laptop, my iPad, you know, all this tiny stuff [that act] like self-care [tools]. Like making sure you have your cologne so you feel like yourself.

VMAN: Your cologne could totally be self-care.

OA: You gotta smell good.

TS: Something that I’m afraid of is I’ve never toured single before, so that’s going to be really interesting.

OA: You never toured single? I’ve brought boys on tour that I was in love with. That wasn’t cool. It was one time and I was like 20, 21. It was terrible.

TS: That sounds terrible to me.

OA: Yeah, never bring them on [the] road.

TS: But I don’t want to meet people while I’m on tour. Like trying to go on dates when you’re in a city for one day. Everything about it sounds really difficult to me, so I’m really curious to see how it unfolds.

OA: So when is your tour?

TS: I’ve got till May 29th to find a boyfriend.

VMAN: Do we think four months is enough time?

OA: Oh, yeah. He’s going to do great. I mean, you’ve been on tour before, but doing it single is way cooler. You don’t want to be in a relationship. I’m telling you.

TS: Yeah, but, like, I don’t know. At the same time, how does one meet people?

OA: You know how to meet people. You go to a fashion show, you go to movie sets, show sets, you go to events and it’s like a pool of people. Let me stop, I feel like I’m talking too much. You’re in Melbourne, right? How do you say it?

TS: I think it’s fine to say it with the hard ‘r’ if you’re American.

OA: I didn’t know that your last name started with an M.

TS: Mellet. What’s yours?

OA: It’s Velasco. Apolonio Velasco. Apolonio is my middle name. That’s where I got Apollo. I also watched Rocky, and I was like, ‘Oh, my God, Apollo Creed is so sick’.

TS: Do you regret changing it at all?

OA: No, I like it a lot. Apollo is sick, and it just looks really cool typed out. But I didn’t mean anything by it, besides it being a play on my middle name. And how did you get Sivan? 

TS: It’s my middle name as well!

OA: Oh your middle name is Sivan. So we did the same thing.

TS: Yeah, but I was so self-possessed as a kid. When I was like 12, I was like ‘I need a stage name.’

OA: (*laughs*)

TS: Even at the school talent show and stuff like that, the first year I entered, I was Troye Mellet. And then by the second year, I had a big head and was like, ‘No, I’m Troye Sivan.’ 

OA: Troye Sivan sounds major. It sounds legit.

TS: Honestly, [another one of] the main reasons was because I started on YouTube and, I was scared of people knowing my name. So I used my middle name because I didn’t want people to—

OA: You didn’t want your government name out there.

VMAN: Don’t let people know your full name, always tour while single, and have a portable sauna when on the road. These are good notes for us to make.

VMAN 52 starring Omar Apollo & Troye Sivan is now available for purchase, here!